Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

@ Nintendo Maniac 64

I have already given enough specifications to spot differences on popular movies; I do not currently have the time to run all tests again to create a meaningful and elaborate comparison - I have spent hundreds of hours calibrating SVP / LAV Megamix / TV to achieve the best possible video. I will update this thread if I do it again, but I already gave up on SVP 4 since I consumed a lot of time configuring it but bare no fruits, so the only reason I do this again is if SVP 4 receives an update related to this issue.

@ dlr5668

In that case your definition of great is different than mine's, since default high quality settings give me headaches in Ant Man and anything else for that matter. Anything above the settings I have in SVP 3 will go from none / extremely minor artifacts to constant minor artifacting and so on. If you are used to artifacts, it is expected that you are not bothered from them and disregard them while watching a film, but I am bothered, as I tend to scan the video for imperfections and what I notice most of my friends do not notice while watching. Point is, SVP 4 will produce much more artifacts in general, with persistent haloing around objects even at the least artifact endorsing settings, and even when it is configured exactly as SVP 3 is.

I want to be clear on this, I had absolutely zero to extremely minor artifacts with SVP 3, while SVP 4 pumps up at least 25% more artifacting, and creates artifacts where SVP 3 did not previously create any at all.

27 (edited by tingtong5 27-11-2015 10:50:21)

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

I experience exactly the same (SVP4 more (HALO like) artifacts and therefore reverted to SVP3 as well untill this will be resolved.

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

Thank you so much. I was Watching Spy using SVP 4 free and noticed the haloing a lot. Downgraded to 3.1.7a and applied your settings and was blown away by the difference in quality. It diffidently uses more resources but my computer has plenty to spare. It seams 3.1.7a is more aggressive the CPU usage is much higher but isn't a problem on a i74770k 4.4Ghz and 980ti.

This is the first time I have used this program and its amazing. I diffidently have to stay with 3.1.7a with your settings the quality is beyond SVP 4 which is a shame really to move up in software but down in quality.

29 (edited by Teiji 06-01-2016 01:36:47)

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

Fabulist wrote:

http://i.imgur.com/Z2CKwkY.png

These settings bring SVP 4's video quality close (about 75%) to SVP 3.1.7's video quality. Mind the difference in the settings "Motion Vector's Grid" and "Artifacts masking". And although it is close, haloing is still very unacceptable on SVP 4 in certain scenes, where the haloing effect is so extreme, that changing settings barely makes a difference. The effect persists 10/10 times on fast motion scenes.

I did try a vast number of changes in SVP 4's settings, I actually tried almost all relevant combinations and SVP 4.0 cannot retain an acceptable video, in terms of haloing, without resulting to much less smooth video. In reality, going for the lowest smoothing options; 2m , 32 px. Large 0, grid step disabled, still produces minor haloing.

Just wanted to say thanks for these SVP 4 settings (with two changes: 2m interpolation and x2/x3 instead of fixed 60fps) . It's A LOT smoother and less artifacts for me than the semi-default settings that I was using (for SVP4 Pro). I didn't use 3.x so I couldn't comment on the issue. But I trust your words and hope they will fix/improve SVP 4 or else it would be a waste of my money to get an "inferior" product when the old, free version is better.

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

Ad me to the list of purchasers when 4 fixes these issues. 3.1.7a is perfect. I am watching Antman right now and loving it no issues with haloing at all. Even in the parts where Fabulist mentioned. Its absolutely what I needed for my Sony Bravia 1080p 60Hz tv/Computer monitor.

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

I am glad that my settings preview helped you achieve better video quality, even if outside the purpose of this thread, but something I have not mentioned is that I combine SVP with my Panasonic's Motion Smoother (set at low) - hence I can spread out the effect and achieve a smoother image for less artifacting. A small number of movies will also require to have "Search radius" set to "Small" (Dark Knight trilogy) in order to eliminate artifacting and animated films to have "Motion vectors grid" set to "12 px" / "14 px" otherwise fast scenes will produce line breaks, especially in highly detailed anime (Vampire Hunter D / Akira / GitS).

In the end game, if you find something in the video that bothers you artifacting wise, or find that you can bare a little bit more artifacting but require more smoothness, you can use these settings as a base and read about the effects of each and every setting via either Googling or reading developer comments in these forums to get what is best for you and your co-viewers.

However, the main issue persists, developers have yet to confirm that these problems can / will be fixed or even confirmed they exist. SVP 4.0 runs better, and we need and expect it to run at least at the same quality as SVP 3.x.

32 (edited by JeepingJohnny 06-01-2016 10:51:23)

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

My TV which I use as a computer monitor has absolutely no smoothing options whatsoever so this is exactly what I needed to watch movies. Thanks for the tips I have this thread archived so I can come back here. My TV (Sony Bravia KDL-40BX420) CFL backlight is like 3-4 years old but has an incredible great picture for games and movies and very low input lag im trying to boost its longevity. It also has nearly imperceptible light bleed on total black screen. I watch movies and play games and use it as a computer monitor and now that I freed it from Studder its all that much better.

I'm just starting out learning about all these type of software's and for sure the pre-packaged solutions are by far the easiest to deal with. Just needs a little tweaking.

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

I would just like to point out that using svp 3.1.7 with the settings Fabulist provided barely increases the smoothness of a 24fps video and requires twice the amount of processing power than what can be achieved with SVP 4 pro

I myself has been struggling with the amounts of artifacting that SVP causes for years now (still do) and have spent countless hours discussing and tweaking settings (also still do), and sometimes even given up on using it for periods of time. But just recently with the SVP 4 pro release and some updates later, i believe that SVP 4 can do a very fine job. (even though less artifacting would be Very much appreciated smile )

These are my settings: http://i.imgur.com/uRXC2R5.png
I am very aware that this is not artifact free. But it is not possible to get artifact free without reducing the smoothness by like 80%
These settings are used with my blu-ray movies, so 1080p content.

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

I find the haloing the most obvious difference from SVP 4 (Free version), it seams to handle fast moving objects against moving backgrounds not nearly as well as SVP 3.1.7a does. Im not willing to just buy it to try the advanced settings. Unless they have a free trail option for the advanced settings.

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

@ stefanogiusio

I find the smoothness increase to be substantial and adequate with my settings combined with my TV's smoothness, but of course you can get an even smoother image, which would be 'better'. However, you cannot get a smoother image without having a significant increase in artifacting. You can always increase the "Frames interpolation mode", but as I said; everyone finds a different set of settings perfect for him or her, mine are just set in a way that almost eliminate artifacts, my best friend who watches only animations has slightly different settings from me, which completely eliminates visible artifacts, for example.

The problem with SVP 4 is that although it provides a smoother video overall (and performs better in general), it has significantly more artifacts, specifically haloing, at any given set of settings. Haloing is actually so strong, that settings which are supposed to deter the problem seem to actually disregard it and just process every other artifact issue but halos.

@ JeepingJohnny

I can assure you that having access to the advanced settings will not do much for the problems discussed here.

36 (edited by ThomasLiddiard 17-01-2016 21:12:05)

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

Hello,

I have looked through this thread and decided to look into this issue thoroughly.
I compared both SVP 3.1.7a and SVP 4.0.0.56 developer biuld.

I first checked the AVS scripts generated by identical settings in both versions. The settings are those used by Fabulist, except artifacts masking was turned off and 16px grid step used for both. The only differences were parameters used for analyse_params:
"distance", -10 in SVP 3 and -8 in SVP 4
"type", default setting of 4 in SVP 3 and 2 in SVP 4
The generated scripts are attached, with modifications (needed for compatability with Avisynth+) seperated by ##### on top and bottom.

I then did a quick direct frame comparison of interpolated frames using these scripts with the corresponding versions of svpflow1.dll and svpflow2.dll used with each version. I chose the opening sequence of Home Alone 2 (2:15 to 2:50) where people are rushing around in the house and there are several camera pans centred on moving people.
This did not show any significant discrepancies as shown in the attached screenshots.

I then decided to count the number of artifacted frames over the given fixed interval of time. A good indicator for every interpolated frame in a camera pan is slight frame tearing on the screen edge, so I looked for severely distorted background patterns in these frames. This was also identical as far as I could tell, with about a third of the frames having artifacts.

So I could not reproduce any significant differences even with close comparison of the two versions. My only explanation is that the latest developer build has addressed these issues and is in the pipeline for official release (which I hope is correct.)

Hope this helps!

Post's attachments

Frame comparison.zip 798.9 kb, 231 downloads since 2016-01-17 

SVP 3.avs 2.05 kb, 286 downloads since 2016-01-17 

SVP 4.avs 1.82 kb, 297 downloads since 2016-01-17 

37 (edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 17-01-2016 21:39:10)

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

ThomasLiddiard wrote:

I compared both SVP 3.1.7a and SVP 4.0.0.56 developer build.

So I could not reproduce any significant differences even with close comparison of the two versions. My only explanation is that the latest developer build has addressed these issues and is in the pipeline for official release (which I hope is correct.)

But the newest version of SVP4 Pro is also 4.0.0.56...

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

ThomasLiddiard, as I said before, I am extremely unwilling to do a shot per shot comparison especially since the developers do not even acknowledge this issue. Regardless, I would suggest that you pick a movie from the list I posted on the first page, preferably Ant-Man. I am calling Ant-Man because although the haloing is more noticeable on fast paced scenes, Ant-Man (including others) has extreme haloing on slow paced scenes where SVP has almost none (one of the scenes is specified in the post). In advance, the scene you picked is not ideal for this kind of testing - if you do test again, prefer fast paced scenes in high video quality.

Is there a chance the developer build to be different than the public build even though it is the same version? Maybe a different branch?

39 (edited by MistahBonzai 18-01-2016 04:05:50)

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

ThomasLiddiard wrote:

Hello,

I first checked the AVS scripts generated by identical settings in both versions. The settings are those used by Fabulist, except artifacts masking was turned off and 16px grid step used for both. The only differences were parameters used for analyse_params:
"distance", -10 in SVP 3 and -8 in SVP 4
"type", default setting of 4 in SVP 3 and 2 in SVP 4
The generated scripts are attached, with modifications (needed for compatibility with Avisynth+) separated by ##### on top and bottom.

Hope this helps!

Re: "type", default setting of 4 in SVP 3 and 2 in SVP 4...  I know where to position it in a script however I can't find a document wherein there is a description of the function. The Plugins: SVPflow 3.1 document makes no mention of it and web searches came up empty.  Perhaps you know where I might find an updated copy covering the new(?) functions in SVP? TIA wink

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

MistahBonzai
"type" is not function, it's option setting. Search for SVPAnalyse option
there are several kind of type ( it's in analyse_params ):
1. main.search.type
2. main.search.coarse.type
3. refine.search.type

I would suggest you to modify your script to conform with JSON so it would be easier for you to tweak the setting too.

It's already available for what kind of value for each type (I put here for completion)
2: Hexagon search (most lightweight)
3: Uneven Multi Hexagon (UMH)
4: Exhaustive search (most heavyweight)

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

I definitely hope that the artifacting will be reduced in the future smile I find myself spending more time changing settings during a movie than actually watching it.

42 (edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 18-01-2016 19:51:32)

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

I really wish I could look into this artifacting myself, but I cannot for the foreseeable future...however, that might change in 4 months if I do get a Bristol Ridge AM4 system as an HTPC (rather then waiting until next year for Summit Ridge)...or I suddenly come into possession of large amounts of money. tongue

For reference, technically I can look into it, but it's a total PITA, and even then I can't look into the avs script nor any other code-like-stuff because my brain can't handle abstract things like coding (and even the rare times it can, I usually find it very unenjoyable).

43 (edited by ThomasLiddiard 19-01-2016 18:13:26)

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

Hello,

I am sorry I could not provide frame comparisons for the films you listed, which is why I described it as a quick comparison. I had none on hand at the time and this was the best I had available (which was a 1080p copy, though I was aware the original film source was not.) I alsorealised that the test may have been effected by the use of the same version of Avisynth or the use of MadVR as the renderer. There are differences between the Developer and Pro versions of SVP but I'm not sure how much this extends beyond the naming and the available components for install.


Therefore I will try the test again when I have time, primarily with Ant Man (when I can get hold of a copy.) I will compare SVP 3.1.7a and SVP 4 Pro using EVR renderer with no image enhancements and the versions of Avisynth installed by default for SVP 3 and 4 (unless anybody has a better suggestion?)

Also, are there one or two other movies that would be especially insteresting to test? I also need three or more points in the movie that I can seek to for the most meaningful comparisons.

MistahBonzai
mashingan has covered your question, but I would like to add that the documentation is present here: https://www.svp-team.com/wiki/Plugins:_SVPflow though you need to look for it under the table for SVSuper.

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

Before you get a hold of a copy of Ant-Man, may I ask if the resolution and/or quality makes a difference, like DVD vs Blu-ray?

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:

Before you get a hold of a copy of Ant-Man, may I ask if the resolution and/or quality makes a difference, like DVD vs Blu-ray?

Yes it does. Use BD remux or atleast 1080p rip

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

Personally, I cannot suggest that you go below pure blu-ray quality, as all the movies I mentioned are 100% quality copies from my discs and not downloads - how much of a difference that makes with SVP, I do not know, what I do know is that as quality decreases (for example DvDs / rips), video quality decreases and blurs, hence less visible artifacts, for me at least.

@ ThomasLiddiard

On my list there are very specific points for a couple of movies, but beyond that just look up for the fast paced scenes for a start. When you feel satisfied with your results and want to go deeper, look for scenes where they are absolutely normal in terms of speed, but the camera smoothly moves around objects / actors (like the specific scene I mention in Ant-Man). That would be the place you want to examine as a follow-up. Remember, artifacts are enhanced in SVP 4 in general (besides window blind artifacts as far as I have noticed), but you are mainly looking for haloing (around actors, around objects, etc.) which is what happens more often and is the easiest to reproduce and compare with SVP 3.0.

47 (edited by ThomasLiddiard 06-02-2016 21:44:04)

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

Ok, I have now experimented with the setup I described previously using the exact settings as shown in the screenshots below (those used by Fabulist for SVP 3.)

http://s8.postimg.org/sds6xnbpx/SVP3_Settings.pnghttp://s21.postimg.org/j183d8u2v/SVP4_Settings.png

I tested Ant Man and many other video clips and can verify the difference in quality you are experiencing.
I have got to the root of the difference but I did not do a qualitative analysis to do this.
I generated images showing where pixel colours differed between interpolated frame screenshots.
This was a VERY slow process, and I compared those interpolated by SVP 3/SVP 4 with default scripts and also edited SVP 4 scripts (to bring it closer to the SVP 3 script.)
The result: At least in the case with Fabulist's settings, modifying the two parameters (those I mentioned previously) to the values in SVP 3 is sufficient to achieve zero difference between the SVP 3 and SVP 4 screenshots.

These are:
"analyse.main.search.coarse.distance" change -8 to -10
"analyse.main.search.coarse.type" change 2 to 4 (default SVPflow setting)

The major factor that changed the amount of artifacting is the "analyse.main.search.coarse.distance" setting which completely changed how sharp and large the artifacts in interpolated frames were.

The "analyse.main.search.coarse.distance" setting is controlled directly by the "Search radius" setting but the values used by SVP 4 and SVP 3 for each setting differ as follows:

                                  SVP 4      SVP 3   
Small and fast:             -6            -6        Also: "analyse.main.search.coarse.satd" set to false, "analyse.main.search.coarse.type" set to 2
Small:                          -6            -6
Average:                      -8            -10
Large:                          -12          -14

The "analyse.main.search.coarse.type" setting can only be controlled partly by the "Search radius" (as mentioned above for "Small and fast").  This makes no difference for SVP 4 since it is set to 2 by default, but it does for SVP 3 since it is set to 4 by default.

Now, this wouldn't be a problem if these settings were controllable through the "all settings" screen but unfortunately they are not.
Therefore to change these settings the simplest way is as follows:
1. Run notepad/wordpad as administrator.
2. Open "override.js" file found in SVP 4 program folder, inside the script folder (you will have to select all files from the drop down list to see it.)
3. Search for each of the settings mentioned before and do the following:
4. Remove the double foward slash at the beginning of the line.
5. Change the values: 4 for "analyse.main.search.type", -10 for "analyse.main.search.coarse.distance".
6. Save and test.
The values have only been tested specifically with the profile settings used by Fabulist, but editing these values should work the same way with different profile settings.

This may still not be enough to achieve the same interpolated video quality because with one of my computers I was having issues with Avisynth MT 2.6 and Avisynth+ that can be used by SVP 4. Frames were being skipped/repeating with no indication in the EVR information overlay and was hard to percieve using 1.5m interpolation mode (I had to use uniform mode.) This made some interpolated frames remain on screen for twice as long, which makes them more noticable compared to using Avisynth 2.5 MT used by defualt with SVP 3. This problem did not exist on my other computer so I cannot recommend a definate fix if you have a similar problem to this.

I would also like to recommend trying these settings which I use on a regular basis and give me minimal artifacts in SVP 4 by default. It also (as far as I can tell) gives smoother motion because of uniform interpolation mode and uses a lot less CPU resources.

http://s10.postimg.org/ym2633cax/My_Settings.png

Hope this helps! smile

48 (edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 07-02-2016 03:35:07)

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

ThomasLiddiard wrote:

                                  SVP 4      SVP 3   
Average:                      -8            -10
Large:                          -12          -14

Wait, I thought the way this worked was that Average gives less smoothness but also less artifacts, hence why it was the default (but whenever I tested it I never really saw a difference)...

Are you saying that "Large" actually results in more smoothness and fewer artifacts?

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

Excellent results ThomasLiddiard, this information will get me back into testing stuff out myself. More importantly, this is vital information for the developers, which should help them better tweak SVP 4 / or provide a different set of rules and options which are comparable to SVP 3.0.

Also, I would like to note that this is not about my settings, which were a mere example, under most situations artifacting (haloing specifically) happens more often and at a higher scale.

Thank you for your time, I will report back when able, I hope others do so as well.

Re: SVP 4 artifacting is unacceptable

@Fabulist
ThomasLiddiard just did of what I've advised to you before smile
http://www.svp-team.com/forum/viewtopic … 955#p54955
But because I don't have SVP4, I couldn't give you an example of how to do it


Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:

Wait, I thought the way this worked was that Average gives less smoothness but also less artifacts, hence why it was the default (but whenever I tested it I never really saw a difference)...

Are you saying that "Large" actually results in more smoothness and fewer artifacts?

analyse.main.search.distance, analyse.main.search.coarse.distance, and analyse.refine.search.distance is used for motion analysing after all.
The better analysis result, the better interpolation.

But just be aware, the larger the value (the pixel that to be analysed), the more burden to CPU. Even changing -8 to -10 could give significant rise in CPU usage (especially if combined with Exhaustive Search).

Based on ThomasLiddiard's finding, SVP4 seems to use analyse.main.search.coarse.type = 2, it's Hexagon Search while SVP3 is using the value 4, Exhaustive Search. The Hexagon Search is way lighter than Exhaustive Search. I personally use 4 for 720p and 3 for 1080p (Uneven Multi Hexagon search, UMH).