1 (edited by Alexander09138 11-06-2019 08:32:17)

Topic: Reduce motion judder?

I have the settings almost to what i want. I know for sure 1.5m mode is the best for me.

Which other settings should i change to reduce motion judder?

I have no clue what any of the motion vector options are, just copied what i found online...any I should change?

btw i normally have the precision on one pixel, just changed to two.

Post's attachments

Screenshot_1.png, 28.56 kb, 634 x 503
Screenshot_1.png 28.56 kb, 418 downloads since 2019-06-11 

Re: Reduce motion judder?

That's because you're using SVP Shader = Complicated. If you want to reduce artifacts, use standard shader, and change Frames Interpolation Mode to maximum fluidity option which is Uniform, I have these settings for 1080p, test them:

Uniform
Standard
Strong

One Pixel
28px. Large 1
By two with local refinement
Large
Strongest
Large

Blend adjacent frames
Do not remove
Do not change
+6

---

For 4K HDR content I have different settings, if you're interested let me know, but test the above for 1080p content.

3 (edited by dlr5668 11-06-2019 10:03:48)

Re: Reduce motion judder?

Uniform is too artifact heavy. Why not to try new tech ? Adaptive with 21 default shader that will switch to 13 (recently improved) on complex scenes. Whats your hardware ? As bonus you can also OC monitor to 72 Hz (x3) / add custom mode 48 Hz (x2 fps)

I had access to 7 1080p monitors and all of them could be OC to 72hz

4 (edited by Alexander09138 11-06-2019 12:07:15)

Re: Reduce motion judder?

Thanks for the responses. I have a 144hz 1440p monitor, i7-9700k, GTX 1070 and 16GB of RAM. I use SVP at 144fps now, but I can't stand the soap opera effect, which is why i use 1.5m...perfect balance IMO.

Blackfyre, I changed everything else you put and it looks nice.

But I will also test out the adaptive with the simple shader to see what it's like

By the way, the type of media I watch is often tv series (usually 1080p) and films.

5 (edited by dlr5668 11-06-2019 13:34:44)

Re: Reduce motion judder?

Alexander09138 wrote:

Thanks for the responses. I have a 144hz 1440p monitor, i7-9700k, GTX 1070 and 16GB of RAM. I use SVP at 144fps now, but I can't stand the soap opera effect, which is why i use 1.5m...perfect balance IMO.

By the way, the type of media I watch is often tv series (usually 1080p) and films.

I rewatched Expanse bluray recently with this override and 72 hz (middle ground between soap and judder like original) and it was amazing

https://i.imgur.com/MUWudzC.png

C:\Program Files (x86)\SVP 4\script\override.js

smooth.scene.limits.m1             = 800; //1600
smooth.scene.limits.m2             = 1400; //2800
smooth.scene.limits.scene         = 2000; //4000
analyse.main.levels                 = -1;
analyse.main.penalty.lambda         = 14.0; //10
analyse.main.penalty.plevel         = 1.4; //1.5
Post's attachments

override.js 2.88 kb, 494 downloads since 2019-06-11 

6 (edited by noobz02152 18-06-2019 13:02:13)

Re: Reduce motion judder?

Still getting judder in a panning scene.
Tried the settings above and the one in the screenshot (below).
Not sure how to work the script, I just copied the one above in the SVP scripts directory.
Artifact masking does not help.
Tried changing Search Radius to Small and Motion Vectors grid to 16x.
Tried the 13 Automatic profiles.

Does it matter if the refresh rate is to screen rather than Fixed 60.0 fps?

Intel i5 8400, GTX 1060, Win10x64. Lav 0.74.1, madvr 0.92.17, MPC HC & BE x64. 2 displays, Dell 2209 WAf, Benq W2000 (HT3050).

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01.JPG, 84.79 kb, 513 x 675
01.JPG 84.79 kb, 423 downloads since 2019-06-18 

Re: Reduce motion judder?

yes, framerate does matter if you want perfectly smooth playback.

SVP theoretically CAN smooth out the playback regardless, but:
Non-integer factors for increasing the Framerate are bad because the necessary workload increases a lot while actually producing worse looking frames.
That's why its always better to set it to "Movie x2" (or x3,... whatever your hardware can handle) instead of "fixed 60fps" or "to screen".

So for example; let's say you have a 24fps video and your display is set to 60hz. According to your config, SVP would do the processing like this:
  24fps * 5 / 2 -> 60fps
which is worse than having it set to either 48 fps (24fps *2) or 72 fps (24 fps * 3) because more calculation/artificial frames lead to more blur and artefacts.

48 fps might look A BIT less fluid than 60 fps, but the gain in quality is totally worth it.

to sum it up; you need to set your screen to a multiple refresh rate of your source materials fps. (eg. 24 fps video -> set your display to either 48, 72 or 144 - nothing in between)
Using madVR you can automatically change the refresh rate accordingly when opening a video file. now with SVP set to match the screen, you are "perfectly" set up.

Re: Reduce motion judder?

sometimes device wont work with 48/72 and you can "hack" it with reclock / mpv analog (24->48->50)

Re: Reduce motion judder?

which device can't handle 48fps?

sure, reclock is another possibility but the video playback will be faster by ~4% which is definitely noticeable, even with Pitch correction.
Besides it generally being a bit of a pain in the ass -especially on Windows 10- The bigger issue is that you are limited to a 32 bit toolchain.

only a few of the reasons why I wouldn't recommend Reclock anymore... 48 fps should work on any device, which is almost indistinguishable to 60fps, especially if you aren't used to >72hz.

@dlr5668, do you have an example for a device that can't handle 48 fps?

10 (edited by dlr5668 23-06-2019 10:27:27)

Re: Reduce motion judder?

chocomel wrote:

which device can't handle 48fps?

sure, reclock is another possibility but the video playback will be faster by ~4% which is definitely noticeable, even with Pitch correction.
Besides it generally being a bit of a pain in the ass -especially on Windows 10- The bigger issue is that you are limited to a 32 bit toolchain.

only a few of the reasons why I wouldn't recommend Reclock anymore... 48 fps should work on any device, which is almost indistinguishable to 60fps, especially if you aren't used to >72hz.

@dlr5668, do you have an example for a device that can't handle 48 fps?

One of my monitors dell s2415h only works in range of 50-75hz, 48 causes flickering.

Re: Reduce motion judder?

chocomel wrote:

yes, framerate does matter if you want perfectly smooth playback.

SVP theoretically CAN smooth out the playback regardless, but:
Non-integer factors for increasing the Framerate are bad because the necessary workload increases a lot while actually producing worse looking frames.
That's why its always better to set it to "Movie x2" (or x3,... whatever your hardware can handle) instead of "fixed 60fps" or "to screen".

So for example; let's say you have a 24fps video and your display is set to 60hz. According to your config, SVP would do the processing like this:
  24fps * 5 / 2 -> 60fps
which is worse than having it set to either 48 fps (24fps *2) or 72 fps (24 fps * 3) because more calculation/artificial frames lead to more blur and artefacts.

48 fps might look A BIT less fluid than 60 fps, but the gain in quality is totally worth it.

to sum it up; you need to set your screen to a multiple refresh rate of your source materials fps. (eg. 24 fps video -> set your display to either 48, 72 or 144 - nothing in between)
Using madVR you can automatically change the refresh rate accordingly when opening a video file. now with SVP set to match the screen, you are "perfectly" set up.

Are you saying that the display needs to be set at 60Hz and SVP at x2, or does the display needs to be set at x2 file refresh rate as well?

For 24Hz, the frame rate is actually 23.975, so would x2 be 47.95Hz?

Both the screen and the projector can do up to 75Hz. Are there any dangers in overclocking them?

Re: Reduce motion judder?

Sorry, that was indeed confusing.

What i meant is:

Setup madVR / MPC-HC to automatically set your refresh rate accordingly to your input files. Then you can leave the switch in SVP at "To Screen" (because your renderer/player will automatically set your display to 59,94 hz when you play 29,97 hz or to 60,00 fps if you play a 30 fps and so on).,0
Choosing a fixed frame rate is not ideal, because you had to change it whenever you play a video with a different framerate.

I'd look into madVR; its really easy to set up custom resolutions. It actually does everything automatically (the calculations to get to ~47,95hz..)

And you are perfectly safe using the highest settings your hardware supports. In fact, its even safe to go beyond them.

Re: Reduce motion judder?

OC'd PJ to 48, 72 and 75hz (for the last 2 the only way to achieve this is with CVT Reduced Blank). Monitor only 48hz.
NVCP does not allow 71.xx, just round numbers.

Tested with the profiles mentioned in post 6.
Still getting judder, can't tell if there is any difference between 60 and 72Hz. Used an exactly 24.0 FPS file, not 23.976.

Judder appears in the same fashion on both displays.
Not sure if it's the displays that are limited, DLP should be the best implementation for smoothness.

14 (edited by dlr5668 24-06-2019 21:04:59)

Re: Reduce motion judder?

noobz02152 wrote:

Judder appears in the same fashion on both displays

All the time or only during some scenes ? watch this already encoded cut @ 71.928hz https://cloud.mail.ru/public/5Q3Z/5b11wegeF

Re: Reduce motion judder?

to test if the "judder" is related to your display config you can check out this page:
https://www.testufo.com/photo#photo=que … ;height=-1
it's very easy to see if your display can handle the framerate

Just close everything else like Browsertabs or Programs that are Ressource-Intensive and/or use your GPU in some way and then press the fullscreen Button in the upper right.
Also Edge and IE are not supported. FF, Chrome or Opera are fine.

If it is completely smooth, it's probably your rendering times that cause the judder. Meaning your GPU/CPU can't handle decoding/processing/rendering of your source file + SVP.
If you see interruptions, your display can't handle the framerate.

Also i saw you did the custom resolution via NVCP... while in theory that should work its probably a good idea to check if the settings madVR calculates for you give a better result.

Your 'Power management mode' in the NV Settings should be 'Adaptive', also try to force VSync: ON for testing purposes - or better create a Profile for your video player (to prevent issues with other programs or games) and leave the VSync setting on Application-controlled.

16 (edited by dlr5668 25-06-2019 10:15:34)

Re: Reduce motion judder?

also https://testufo.com/frameskipping + camera. SLR is the best but even cheap 80$ android is OK. Setup lowest ISO + continuous shot. Grab 50-100 shots and check them all

17 (edited by noobz02152 25-06-2019 17:13:49)

Re: Reduce motion judder?

chocomel wrote:

to test if the "judder" is related to your display config you can check out this page:
https://www.testufo.com/photo#photo=que … ;height=-1
it's very easy to see if your display can handle the framerate

Just close everything else like Browsertabs or Programs that are Ressource-Intensive and/or use your GPU in some way and then press the fullscreen Button in the upper right.
Also Edge and IE are not supported. FF, Chrome or Opera are fine.

If it is completely smooth, it's probably your rendering times that cause the judder. Meaning your GPU/CPU can't handle decoding/processing/rendering of your source file + SVP.
If you see interruptions, your display can't handle the framerate.

Also i saw you did the custom resolution via NVCP... while in theory that should work its probably a good idea to check if the settings madVR calculates for you give a better result.

Your 'Power management mode' in the NV Settings should be 'Adaptive', also try to force VSync: ON for testing purposes - or better create a Profile for your video player (to prevent issues with other programs or games) and leave the VSync setting on Application-controlled.

The Dell is set as primary display, with PJ 2nd, extended displays.
Monitor connected via DVI, PJ via HDMI.
The VGA has an 2.0b HDMI and the PJ has an 2.0a for HDMI port #1 and 1.4a for HDMI port #2 (regular 10m/30ft cable), so I don't think bandwidth is a problem.
Tested both PJ HDMI inputs.

Test UFO seems to require the test be run on the primary display, if the test is run on the 2nd display it will take the refresh rate from the primary.
Tested on FF x64, latest, all add ons disabled.
The Dell ran smoothly on 4 refresh rates: 48, 60, 72, 75.
The Benq ran smoothly on 2 refresh rates 48 and 60. On 72 and 75 there was constant judder.

I ran the video test file again with the refresh rates that were smooth on the respective displays, and judder was still present.

Tested SVP on the displays while they were primary/secondary (while extended). Also disconnected each one to see if it would make any difference with only 1 display.

In madvr OSD, the render time is about 8ms, so under the required vsync.
Also in madvr OSD the screen refresh rate is accurate, with one exception: with the Dell on fullscreen (it says it's 60Hz). To achieve a correct value Full Screen Exclusive needs to be disabled.

When testing SVP with 48Hz the CPU is at 50% and GPU at 40%, with judder present. On 60Hz CPU is at 70% and GPU at 90%.

Updated drivers from 416, to 418 and now to 425.31 (last driver with 3D support). Used DDU.
Tested with vsync on (was set at Use the 3D application setting) and changed PMM to Adaptive (was set at Prefer maximum performance). No difference.
The GPU can do PCIE 16 x3, tested with GPU Z.
Settings in NVCP for PJ are: RGB, Full dynamic range, 8bit color depth. PJ is set to PC signal.
Tested with RGB Limited as well (changed from NVCP and PJ). YCbCR is not available for 72 and 75 Hz.
PJ settings: Brilliant color Off. Tried Cinema (Rec. 709) and Game modes. Keystone Off. Noise Reduction 0. Film Mode On. No overscan. HDMI Audio Off (from Windows, NVCP, PJ).

dlr5668 wrote:
noobz02152 wrote:

Judder appears in the same fashion on both displays

All the time or only during some scenes ? watch this already encoded cut @ 71.928hz https://cloud.mail.ru/public/5Q3Z/5b11wegeF

It does not appear all the time, just in some scenes.
For testing purposes I use Love, Death and Robots episode 2 (Morpheus) 3min:42sec, when the camera pans from right to left.

Downloaded the file. Tested at 72Hz on both displays.
There seems to be some minor judder/artifacts at second 4 (around the main character), and the next second 5 on the left side of the face (around the ear).
The rest is too fast to notice anything wrong, but not very smooth.

dlr5668 wrote:

also https://testufo.com/frameskipping + camera. SLR is the best but even cheap 80$ android is OK. Setup lowest ISO + continuous shot. Grab 50-100 shots and check them all

Will try as soon as I can get a camera.

18 (edited by noobz02152 29-06-2019 20:00:00)

Re: Reduce motion judder?

dlr5668 wrote:
Alexander09138 wrote:

Thanks for the responses. I have a 144hz 1440p monitor, i7-9700k, GTX 1070 and 16GB of RAM. I use SVP at 144fps now, but I can't stand the soap opera effect, which is why i use 1.5m...perfect balance IMO.

By the way, the type of media I watch is often tv series (usually 1080p) and films.

I rewatched Expanse bluray recently with this override and 72 hz (middle ground between soap and judder like original) and it was amazing

https://i.imgur.com/MUWudzC.png

C:\Program Files (x86)\SVP 4\script\override.js

smooth.scene.limits.m1             = 800; //1600
smooth.scene.limits.m2             = 1400; //2800
smooth.scene.limits.scene         = 2000; //4000
analyse.main.levels                 = -1;
analyse.main.penalty.lambda         = 14.0; //10
analyse.main.penalty.plevel         = 1.4; //1.5

@dlr5668 what are the rest of the settings in the screenshot?
Regarding the script, do I just copy it in the SVP scripts folder?


Haven't got a camera but from doing some research 1080p DLP projectors can be overclocked up to 75Hz, but skip frames.

I don't have a good knowledge of SVP, but I played around with the options and the judder seems to come if interpolation mode is set to anything other than Uniform or Adaptive>Uniform, and/or Artifact masking is set to Strongest.

60FPS does not seem to differ from 72FPS (on the monitor).

Used the settings in the attached screenshot and had no judder in the LD&R test scene, but the panning is smudged.
Is it possible 60 or 72FPS is not enough for a smooth and clear transition in this scene?

Post's attachments

01.JPG, 82.5 kb, 519 x 677
01.JPG 82.5 kb, 422 downloads since 2019-06-29 

Re: Reduce motion judder?

chocomel wrote:

That's why its always better to set it to "Movie x2" (or x3,... whatever your hardware can handle)

So, if I have  59,940 Hz LED TV, I should set  23,976 x 3= 71,928  or  23,976 x5= 119,88 ?

Re: Reduce motion judder?

Its really not that hard - the more frames SVP creates in between the "real" ones, the more artificial the overall image quality will look.
I don't have a HFR display, so i've never experienced interpolation to 120hz but personally I prefer the sharper image of a '23,976 x2 -> 47,952' over a 'x3 -> 71,928' in the most cases. Depends a lot on the source as well, of course.

So yeah, both your settings are "fine" as in - they don't cause unnecessary workload or create "especially bad" frames... I've explained it in the other post already. Integer multiplier = good (if it makes sense is another question)