1 (edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 18-09-2016 19:46:47)

Topic: [old thread] Concepts for optimal frame rates & refresh rates in SVP

See the updated thread here:
http://www.svp-team.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=61595

Re: [old thread] Concepts for optimal frame rates & refresh rates in SVP

I am not certain about the rest, but shouldn't SVP's "60 FPS" be paired with 59 Hz? https://www.svp-team.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2462

3 (edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 17-08-2016 03:50:54)

Re: [old thread] Concepts for optimal frame rates & refresh rates in SVP

Fabulist wrote:

shouldn't SVP's "60 FPS" be paired with 59 Hz? https://www.svp-team.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2462

Only if the source content is 29.97fps rather than 30.00fps, but even then the difference is quite minor since it doesn't actually change anything with the interpolation unlike the difference between 24fps--to->60Hz and 24fps--to->72Hz.

Re: [old thread] Concepts for optimal frame rates & refresh rates in SVP

I thought you were mentioning the most common fps used, the average user will not understand what you wrote and the minor difference is quite a big deal for some people: http://htpcproject.com/refresh-rate-23hz-24hz/

This is important under technical terms since SVP cannot (will not) make 60fps for 60Hz rather 60fps for the standard 59Hz.

Also, to my system and some other systems I configure (with LAV Megamix), whenever I have higher refresh rate than the fps SVP is supposed to produce, e.g. 48fps on 60Hz, I get stutterish / jittery slow moving objects and sometimes even problematic entire scenes, thus I am 'forced' to use 60fps at all times as the TVs refuse to operate on 47/48/49Hz under any circumstances, isn't that the case for you?

5 (edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 17-08-2016 12:44:54)

Re: [old thread] Concepts for optimal frame rates & refresh rates in SVP

Fabulist wrote:

This is important under technical terms since SVP cannot (will not) make 60fps for 60Hz rather 60fps for the standard 59Hz.

But that's just it - on PC displays, 60.00Hz is the standard, not 59.94Hz.

Also the key point is that SVP treats 30.00fps and 29.97fps the exact same because by default SVP puts the difference between the two framerates within its margin of error. Therefore, even if you set SVP to use "to screen refresh" and your display is set to 90.00Hz, it will still automatically choose to do exactly 3x to 89.91fps for 29.97fps content - this is the biggest reason I made no mention of drop-frame framerates, because my whole point was trying to lay out the differences in interpolation results that you get with different refresh rates, and in the case of this example the interpolation is literally the exact same.

There's also the issues that, depending on your PC configuration, Windows can actually label something like 47.952Hz as 48Hz which kind of makes it difficult to actually know what the true refresh rate is.  And don't forget that a good chunk of displays are actually completely incapable of running at exactly 59.94Hz (my laptop is one of them!).

Lastly, newer players like mpv are built around the idea of basically doing what Reclock does because you can never guarantee that the display on every PC will be running at exactly 60.00Hz or 59.94Hz, so in such cases it's arguably expected that the user already will be slightly altering the source video frame rate in order to more accurately match their refresh rate (relevant mpv article).


Fabulist wrote:

Also, to my system and some other systems I configure (with LAV Megamix), whenever I have higher refresh rate than the fps SVP is supposed to produce, e.g. 48fps on 60Hz, I get stutterish / jittery slow moving objects and sometimes even problematic entire scenes, thus I am 'forced' to use 60fps at all times as the TVs refuse to operate on 47/48/49Hz under any circumstances, isn't that the case for you?

...this is already addressed in the opening post; I distinctly mentioned that many TVs can't handle custom refresh rates and therefore it may be of interest to try to actually speed up 24fps (and yes, 23.976fps) content to 25fps and display them at 50Hz.

But even then, I still included things like 24fps--to->60Hz in my first post under the "fast but not quite as smooth" category, so it's not like I didn't acknowledge that there are situations where you may be stuck with using that (older Intel graphics that don't support 50Hz output comes to mind).

Re: [old thread] Concepts for optimal frame rates & refresh rates in SVP

60Hz is not some kind of standard across monitors and TVs as you think neither did I mean it like that, I was simply indicating that SVP's 60fps relates to the produced 59Hz value from monitors and TVs and not the 60Hz value. As for the rest of your analysis; as I previously said, for some people it is important for various reasons, especially on TVs, you can find out more about on Google, but there is more into it than you think.

Comparing your laptop's 60Hz with a TV's 60Hz / 59Hz is pointless since not the same results can be produced on most PC monitors and most TV monitors as there are vast differences on most such available products, SVP's frame "margin of error" does not apply in such situations.

Also, "fast but not quite as smooth" is quite an understatement imho, and I do not see this addressed on the opening on your post in a clear way as it should be before giving such directions. Lastly, suggesting to lower Hz first before increasing it or tampering with the refresh rate in general without knowing what kind of TV / Monitor is each using is a erroneous suggestion for multiple reasons.

7 (edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 18-08-2016 00:50:05)

Re: [old thread] Concepts for optimal frame rates & refresh rates in SVP

I realize that it's not your intention, but I just want you to know that some of the things your saying are a bit too close to FUD-like, so you may want to be a bit more careful with what you're trying to convey in the future; the last thing any PC enthusiast would want to happen is to scare someone from tinkering with their own PC seeing how that's how many of us got to where we are with our PC enthusiasm in the first place.


Fabulist wrote:

I was simply indicating that SVP's 60fps relates to the produced 59Hz value from monitors and TVs and not the 60Hz value

But this is simply not true - 29.97fps content turns into 59.94 while 30.00fps content turns into 60.00, and this occurs regardless of whether your refresh rate is 59.94Hz or 60.00Hz; SVP does not use 59.94 for both 29.97 and 30.00fps.


Fabulist wrote:

As for the rest of your analysis; as I previously said, for some people it is important for various reasons, especially on TVs, you can find out more about on Google, but there is more into it than you think.

But any flat panel TV that doesn't support 60.00fps is in fact out of spec because both ATSC and DVB specs list support for not only 59.94Hz but 60.00Hz as well.


Fabulist wrote:

Comparing your laptop's 60Hz with a TV's 60Hz / 59Hz is pointless since not the same results can be produced on most PC monitors and most TV monitors as there are vast differences on most such available products, SVP's frame "margin of error" does not apply in such situations.

This to me sounds like you're saying that 60.00Hz doesn't exist on TVs, which is completely wrong considering that even old pre-color black and white content was broadcast in 60.00fps interlaced.

A TV's EDID wouldn't list 60.00Hz if it didn't work - that's the point of an EDID after all!


Fabulist wrote:

Also, "fast but not quite as smooth" is quite an understatement imho, and I do not see this addressed on the opening on your post in a clear way as it should be before giving such directions.

The result is literally as I state it to be - something like 25fps--to->60Hz feels faster but less smooth than 25fps--to->50fps.


Fabulist wrote:

Lastly, suggesting to lower Hz first before increasing it or tampering with the refresh rate in general without knowing what kind of TV / Monitor is each using is a erroneous suggestion for multiple reasons.

PC monitors have supported multiple refresh rates for literally decades; 75Hz was/is actually quite common and only fell out of use around the late 2000s when CRTs become uncommon enough that it was assumed that the display was always LCD, and LCDs don't result in crazy flicker at 60Hz like CRTs do so 75Hz was no longer necessary leading to a lot of things only using 60Hz; by comparison an LCD monitor being capable of 75Hz in 2005 wasn't unheard of at all since 75Hz was much more common then due to CRTs.  This was all without the use of custom resolutions and simply selecting different refresh rates via the normal Windows "Monitor" tab under "Advanced settings" (which itself simply lists the values provided by the display's EDID).

Besides, never in my entire 10 years using custom resolutions have I actually damaged a display (CRT, LCD, laptop, and TV) even when running outside of the EDID's spec, so I'm not about to start telling people that changing their refresh rate to something that's already listed in their EDID is going to break their hardware.  But even when you're running outside of the display's EDID you should never be able to break anything because it's not like we're sending the display a non-standard video signal anyway - there's nothing about the digital video connections in use (internal or external) that restrict the ability to use a different refresh rate, otherwise you wouldn't be able to have TVs that support 24Hz, 50Hz, and 60Hz out-of-the-box (which is particularly important in Europe where all 3 refresh rates are common).

Re: [old thread] Concepts for optimal frame rates & refresh rates in SVP

I do not know what does "FUD-like" mean but there is no reason to get defensive, the only one who needs to be careful here is you because you are stating information in a way that would be difficult to comprehend and promotes ignorance to whoever wanted to give it a go and started being informed from your post.

"But this is simply not true - 29.97fps content turns into 59.94 while 30.00fps content turns into 60.00, and this occurs regardless of whether your refresh rate is 59.94Hz or 60.00Hz; SVP does not use 59.94 for both 29.97 and 30.00fps."

Yeah it is, the statement is true exactly as I typed it, for some reason you are reading something else. What you are saying is also true, but you are forgetting one thing, SVP will ask you to convert to 60fps on both a 29.97 and a 30.00 source. Do you really not find what comes after incredibly confusing for the average first-time reader?

"But any flat panel TV that doesn't support 60.00fps is in fact out of spec because both ATSC and DVB specs list support for not only 59.94Hz but 60.00Hz as well."

Completely irrelevant to what I stated but OK.

"This to me sounds like you're saying that 60.00Hz doesn't exist on TVs, which is completely wrong considering that even old pre-color black and white content was broadcast in 60.00fps interlaced.
A TV's EDID wouldn't list 60.00Hz if it didn't work - that's the point of an EDID after all!"

What sounds to you is wrong, it is exactly what I typed. Comparing PC monitor's and TV's by today's standards is plain asinine for many reasons.

I am not trying to convey anything, I am pretty clear. As for your last and lengthy paragraph, this is less than 1% of what there is to know about these subjects, and explaining to you this was my intention from the beginning but I have failed to do so.

9 (edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 18-09-2016 19:47:08)

Re: [old thread] Concepts for optimal frame rates & refresh rates in SVP

Fabulist wrote:

I do not know what does "FUD-like" mean but there is no reason to get defensive

Basically the tone that I am interpreting from certain things you say feels close to FUD at times - fear, uncertainty, and doubt.


Fabulist wrote:

the only one who needs to be careful here is you because you are stating information in a way that would be difficult to comprehend and promotes ignorance to whoever wanted to give it a go and started being informed from your post.

The way I see it, if I wanted to fully explain framerates and drop frames and fractional refresh rates and the like then I would have done so.  However, the purpose of this thread was never about matching your refresh rate exactly exactly to your framerate because then that gets into the mess of whether your "60.00Hz" is actually 60.000 and not 60.006Hz and the like.

My overall point that I was targeting was a general understanding that working with non-fractional multiple for your framerates works better than if you didn't, that is all.  The 24, 25, and 30fps examples were just that - examples to easily convey this idea.  If I were to cover a more complete explaination then I would have included things 20fps and HFR framerates like 48fps, 50fps, and yes the various drop-frame framerates like 30000/1001.


Fabulist wrote:

SVP will ask you to convert to 60fps on both a 29.97 and a 30.00 source. Do you really not find what comes after incredibly confusing for the average first-time reader?

This statement of yours is really not clear at all to me; what are you referring to when you say that SVP will ask you to convert?  I say this because I've never had SVP ask me anything outside of the initial performance assessment - it just does whatever the according video profile is configured as.


Fabulist wrote:

What sounds to you is wrong, it is exactly what I typed. Comparing PC monitor's and TV's by today's standards is plain asinine for many reasons.

Well then we'll just have to agree to disagree.  I already acknowledged that many TVs don't support custom resolutions, but even without them the EDID is a standardized function across any sort of digital display (TVs, monitors, projectors, etc).

Or are you trying to say that the user should not actually trust the EDID?


Fabulist wrote:

this is less than 1% of what there is to know about these subjects, and explaining to you this was my intention from the beginning but I have failed to do so.

I point to my earlier statement in this post - this thread was never intended to get into the nitty-gritty because I wanted to provide the most bang-per-buck that I could among users.  In other words, if I typed up a term paper, then this would only benefit a small minority as the kind of person that would read and/or understand it would very likely already be familiar with everything I was already stating.

To use a business term, I was trying to reach the "blue ocean", and yes this did involve what some would call "dumbing it down", but you can't expect to have a toddler understand calculus, and teaching that toddler something a bit more than just basic addition or subtraction was my goal going in.


EDIT: I have edited the beginning of my opening post in an attempt to make it more clear what I was trying to convey with this thread.


EDIT 2: See the updated thread here:
http://www.svp-team.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=61595

10 (edited by Godmax 20-02-2018 18:38:46)

Re: [old thread] Concepts for optimal frame rates & refresh rates in SVP

I got a question: 23,976fps movies work perfectly with 120fps interpolation. Perfectly smooth. Now with 29,97fps videos NO MATTER what I choose, 60-90-120fps, there is always a stutter. In between the stutter it is smooth but it "freezes" every 1-2 seconds or sth.! Why is that? Isnt there a way to make that smooth as well if 23,976fps material works perfectly?

One way is to convert the 29,97fps to 23,976fps which then makes the movie perfectly smooth. Probably only means a stutter every minute or sth. better than the nonstop stutter at 29,97fps though.

11 (edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 21-02-2018 10:09:11)

Re: [old thread] Concepts for optimal frame rates & refresh rates in SVP

You're lucky I randomly revisited this forum to post a question after pretty much a year or so of not being on here. tongue

Nevertheless, your issue would probably be more appropriate to have its own thread, as that's quite a strange issue you have.  The only thing I can think of is that maybe it's the specific video clip you're testing with or maybe your hardware decoder can't quite do 30fps of whatever codec you're using.

Thing is, 5x interpolation of 24fps would be considerably more CPU and GPU intensive than 2x interpolation of 30fps except in terms of hardware decoding the actual source video stream.

Re: [old thread] Concepts for optimal frame rates & refresh rates in SVP

Looks like you have 30 fps video maked from 24 fps by adding frame doubles. Check it frame by frame.

Re: [old thread] Concepts for optimal frame rates & refresh rates in SVP

Mhh yeah I admit that could be the issue that 24fps have been boosted to 30fps. However its with every 29,97fps video I encounter. No matter from where. Youtube for example. 29,97fps stuff is always stuttering whereas 23,976 always runs perfectly smooth.

Re: [old thread] Concepts for optimal frame rates & refresh rates in SVP

i have blurays of 23 and 60i, smooth as a butter with svp doing 60, 72, and 144 (though i mainly use 72 as 144 bring my system to its knees)

definitely the source or the display (is that even possible?) btw if its help, my display sometimes need a restart if i chnage the rr apart from its native if i dont, windows acting strange like stuttering like hell