Re: madVR and SVP

Chainik
so 0.00 is ok to use?
So the higher the maxden value, the more artifacts? So should I 'look' (trial and error) for a value which is still low and gives me (almost) no dropped frames?

Re: madVR and SVP

If "0.00" works for you - it's great.
Just don't try to set "maxden" to "25000000", I'm sure it'll kill SVP Manager  big_smile

About artifacts - there's no real difference if num/den are bigger than 5/2 so don't bother about it wink

Re: madVR and SVP

Ok, thxz.

Now that I have this issue settled I want to invest some time in getting the best settings. Because I use a projector (and the screen size is pretty big) I see artifact much more than on a rather small tv. The standard settings gives me too many noticable artifact. I know that there exists no setting that will result in 0 artifacts but atm it is just too much. Can you advise me with which settings I can play to get less artifacts? They are best noticable with fast moving scenes and with the contours of people etc on regular scenes too.

ps. I rather prefer a little less smoothness and less artifacts then very much smoothness with more artifacts.

Thanks for your help until now Chainik!

Re: madVR and SVP

I also did some more testing with the maxden setting (and FPSDifference with all testings on 0.0005)
I found out that with maxden set from 0-199 gives me a ''Fresh'' of 59,94 and from 200-2000 (and even with 10000) results in a ''Fresh'' of 60.002. With all settings I got a ''MonFreqD3D'' of 60.002. Of course this assumes that I should take a value of 200-10000. What is the best to pick?

Re: madVR and SVP

THX-UltraII
Let me try to answer smile

It is part of your script (setting's values):

multinum=5
multiden=2
algo=13
block=false
ml=0
search=4
sadml=0
sadgamma=1
blend=true
dist=2
pel=1
sharp=0
Recalc=0
blkh=32
blkv=32
overlap=0
overlapv=0
wid_den=1
hei_den=1

It is right values. But you can change some of it (marked with bold font) to get less artifacts. I reproduced your profile settings.

http://www.svp-team.com/forum/misc.php?item=1098

You can:
1. Change Search radius to 1 pixel. It makes dynamics of motion a little shorter and less waves-artifacts. It is easier to CPU.
2. Change Block overlapping to 0.25 of block. It makes motions in frame more coherence. It is heavier to CPU.
3. Change Bad areas artifacts suppression to Normal or Below Normal. It adds mask above artifacts areas but makes smoothness of such areas less noticeable. It is heavier to CPU.
4. Change SVP-shader to 2. Simple bidirectional. It will make new frames maximally sharp. Best choice for anime. It is easier to CPU or GPU if accelerated.
5. Change Framerate change to 1m or 2m. It will leave more source frames in video hence less noticeable artifacts on new frames. The equability of motion will be a little broken. It is easier to CPU or GPU if accelerated.

Good luck

Post's attachments

SVP_profile_for_THX-UltraII.png, 17.39 kb, 456 x 562
SVP_profile_for_THX-UltraII.png 17.39 kb, 420 downloads since 2012-02-12 

Re: madVR and SVP

THX-UltraII
What is the best to pick?
Best thing is to switch you projector to 59.94 refresh rate. wink
It will let you to apply 5:2 (num:den) coefficient to video. It will give the best smoothness with less artifacts than big values of num and den.

32 (edited by THX-UltraII 12-02-2012 20:59:52)

Re: madVR and SVP

MAG79
My JVC projector cannot be set to a specific refresh rate. It just picks up the video input that it gets from it s source, in my case a NVIDIA display card.

But more interesting results as I did some more testing today:

1. Played a 2 hours and 6 minutes movie with settings 2000/0.0005 (Fresh and MonFreqD3D correspond EXACTLY with these settings, both 60.006) with the frame blending checkbox DISabled. The result: 95 dropped frames.

2. Played the same 2 hours and 6 minutes movie with settings 2000/0.0005 (Fresh and MonFreqD3D correspond EXACTLY with these settings, both 60.003) with the frame bleding checkbox ENabled. The result: 249 dropped frames

3. Played the same 2 hours and 6 minutes movie with settings 20/0.12 (Fresh and MonFreqD3D DO NOT correpond with these settings, Fresh=59,94 and MonFreqD3D=60.006) with the frame blending box ENabled. The result: 54 dropped frames.

4. Played the same 2 hours and 6 minutes movie with settings 20/0.12 (Fresh and MonFreqD3D DO NOT correpond with these settings, Fresh=59,94 and MonFreqD3D=60.006) with the frame blending box DISabled. The result: 351 dropped frames.

What does all of this tell?

Also there is no real difference in CPU load in testing 1 and 2 (so here it does not make the CPU load more with or without the frame blending checkbox checked). In contrary with testing 3 and 4; here is a huge difference when disabling or enabling the frame blending checkbox (when enabled, setting 3, the CPU load is very heavy).

So still looking for the best configuration which will give me the least dropped frames.......


Thxz for all your help MAG and Chainik!!

(I ll come back later to the artifact settings itself but first I want to be sure what I m doing with all this frames/frequency 'problems')

Re: madVR and SVP

THX-UltraII
What does all of this tell?

I don't know  hmm May be the problem is NOT in frequencies but in madVR / video drivers / something else.

BTW, a good question is: why you stick with madVR if you're watching 1080p video on 1080p projector? madVR is cool when you need to scale video but in point-to-point output mode there're no benefits.

Re: madVR and SVP

THX-UltraII
JVC projector cannot be set to a specific refresh rate... NVIDIA display card
NVIDIA Control Panel - Display - Change resolution - Customize... - check "1080p, 1920x1080 with 59 Hz (32b bit)" - OK.
After that you can find new video mode: 1920x1080, 59 Hz. It is 59.94 just for movies. wink

no real difference in CPU load in testing 1 and 2
It must be so. Frame blending works only when framerate and refreshrate are different. If they are equal it just leaves frames without any processing.

still looking for the best configuration which will give me the least dropped frames
You can try to use LAV decoder with NVIDIA CUVID acceleration. I found that different decoders gives different smoothness hmm
And this decoder (with CUVID checked) has better smoothness for NVIDIA cards. cool

I like to check smootheness on EVR Custom Press Statistic by Ctrl-J in MPC-HC.

http://www.svp-team.com/forum/misc.php?item=1105

It smoothness and equability is OK you should to see a parallel horizontal lines on graphic.

http://www.svp-team.com/forum/misc.php?item=1106

Post's attachments

EVR_Custom_settings.png, 20.44 kb, 660 x 499
EVR_Custom_settings.png 20.44 kb, 425 downloads since 2012-02-12 

EVR_statistic.jpg, 59.35 kb, 640 x 400
EVR_statistic.jpg 59.35 kb, 483 downloads since 2012-02-12 

Re: madVR and SVP

Chainik
do you suggest EVR or EVR Custom?

Re: madVR and SVP

THX-UltraII
EVR Custom supports pixel shaders and subtitles rendering

37 (edited by THX-UltraII 14-02-2012 16:33:22)

Re: madVR and SVP

Chainik
What is subtitle rendering and pixel shaders?

I once got a list on the doom9s forum about the benefits of madVR even when playing 1080p material on a 1080p display device. I ll look into it and let you know (so maybe you can look into it too and see if madVR is indeed better).


More about the dropped frames issue:
I reinstalled the NVIDIA drivers (285.62) and choose the 1080p59 profile like MAD79 suggested. Now it works like a charm (Fresh=59.94, MonFreqD3D=59.941 and 3 dropped frames during a 2 hour movie!) with the standard 5/2 setting!

Only thing is I got lip sync problems which I don t have when I m NOT using SVP. So the video lags behind the audio (or the other way smile).

Once I get the lip sync problems figured out the next step will be the actual configuration of SVP. Last night I tried some first changes in the original settings and I noticed that almost every setting has it s affect on the visible artifacts. Is there a list somewhere where I can see a full explanation of every single setting that can be changed in the expert mode of SVP.

Also heard something about SVP 3.1. Any idea when this will be released and a sneek peak on the fixes/new features you can maybe post already?

Re: madVR and SVP

THX-UltraII
NVIDIA drivers (285.62) <...> I got lip sync problems which I don t have when I m NOT using SVP

http://www.svp-team.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=515
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthre … st21491982

Re: madVR and SVP

Chainik
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthre … st21491982
I don t use ReClock so that can t cause the problem

http://www.svp-team.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=515
So you re suggesting to revert back to an older driver?

And my other questions? smile
Once I get the lip sync problems figured out the next step will be the actual configuration of SVP. Last night I tried some first changes in the original settings and I noticed that almost every setting has it s affect on the visible artifacts. Is there a list somewhere where I can see a full explanation of every single setting that can be changed in the expert mode of SVP.

Also heard something about SVP 3.1. Any idea when this will be released and a sneek peak on the fixes/new features you can maybe post already?

Re: madVR and SVP

THX-UltraII
I don t use ReClock so that can t cause the problem

It's not about Reclock but poor performance of "OpenCL 1.1" NV drivers. So yes, try to start with 275.33.

Is there a list somewhere where I can see a full explanation of every single setting that can be changed in the expert mode of SVP.

It's sad but no sad
I hope to write something about it after 3.1 release and there also will be much more self-explaining settings names, tooltips and so on.

Any idea when this will be released
A few weeks

Re: madVR and SVP

I asked the question on the Doom9s forum: does madVR offer higher PQ than EVR Custom when playing 1080p content on a 1080p display device?
madVR does indeed has better PQ than EVR Custom so you and MAG79 might want to look into madVR too. You can read more about it from posting #12142 - #12150 in the thread on the doom 9s forum over here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t … ;page=608.


The lipsync problem:
Tried 175.33 but this did not solve the lip sync issues so went back to 285.62. Or do you not recommend 285.62 for best performance?


About the settings (can t wait for your detailed guide!  wink ). Could you maybe fill in the questions? I know it will take you some time but I m introducing SVP on the biggest dutch home theater community atm and there are a lot of interested people for SVP but I want to post a small guide in Dutch language where all the settings are for cause people are asking for this.

1. Smoothness Improvement
- Normal (an extra option then with the smoothness improvement option 'By Blocks' comes available which is called Blocks Overlapping).
- By Blocks
- Advanced (different SVP-shaders to choose from, Contour Artifacts Suppression becomes available).

Questions:
Is By Blocks the leasts accurate smoothness option which causes the most artifact and is the least CPU intensive?
.............................................................................................................................................................
Which of the three offers the best picture quality and gives the least artifacts if configured correctly and CPU is fast enough?
.............................................................................................................................................................
With the smoothness normal option, what are the differences between the selectable SVP-shaders Standard, Simple and Simple Bidirectional. And what are the artifacts of each of those three that can become visible?
..............................................................................................................................................................
With the smoothness advanded option, what are the differences between the selectable SVP-shaders Original and Complex. And what are the artifacts of each of those three that can become visible?
..............................................................................................................................................................

2. Framerate Change:
What can be told as explanation for all the different types of framerate changes you can select here besides of course differences in CPU usage? What do they exactly do? Which gives the least artifacts with best smoothness? What is 1m and 2m? etc.
..............................................................................................................................................................

3. Interpolated Frames Size
What does it do exactly and is Full size the best and maybe only option you want to pick here?
..............................................................................................................................................................

4. Search Radius
Is 4 pixels to most accurate (and of course most CPU intensive) with the least artifacts you can get? What does it do exactly?
..............................................................................................................................................................

5. Search Types
How do the 4 selectable options here (Logarithmic, Hexagon, Uneven Multi Hexagon and Exhaustive) different from each other and which gives the leasts artifacts, best smoothness etc?
..............................................................................................................................................................

6. Motion Estimation Accuracy
It seems that that half or quater-pixel is very CPU intensive. What does it do exactly and what about the artifacts of them?
..............................................................................................................................................................

7. Recalculation Of Vectors
What happens with the picture when you select to recalculate with blocks dividing in this setting? How does this affect smoothness and artifacts?
..............................................................................................................................................................

8. Blocks Size
Does 32x32 gives the best smoothness and least artifacts or 8x8? What does it do exactly?
..............................................................................................................................................................

9. Blocks Overlapping
What does it do exactly and do you get less or more artifacts when choosing this option?
..............................................................................................................................................................

10. Contour Artifacts Suppression
Do you get the least artifacts when choosing high here? Are there other things to tell about this setting?
..............................................................................................................................................................

11. Bad Areas Artifacts Suppression
Do you get the least artifacts when choosing high here? Are there other things to tell about this setting?
..............................................................................................................................................................

12. Bad Areas Artifacts Mask
What do the options Light, Normal and Sharp do and which gives the least artifacts?
..............................................................................................................................................................
13. Processing Of Scene Change
What is the difference between Frame Blending and Frame Repeating?
..............................................................................................................................................................
14. Reduce Resolution
Was this option created for very low CPUs?

Re: madVR and SVP

THX-UltraII
I am busy with new version SVP. Can you translate from Russian?
http://svp-help.narod.ru - It is old guide to SVP 2.0, but description of many settings is still actual.

Or you can read full MVTools documentation in English.

Or you can read English guides from Spirton (SubJunk):
SVP: SmoothVideo Project
Framedoubling/60fps conversion guide updated

Re: madVR and SVP

The two sites from Spirton does not explain what settings do and how they affect smoothness, artifacts and CPU. The Avisynth site also does not seem to explain the settings in your program (which is awesome by the way!!).

The SVP-help link you provided might be very helpfull to start with. But I can t get it working with google translation to English.

Re: madVR and SVP

THX-UltraII
But I can t get it working with google translation to English
Good for you cause reading google translations is just a waste of time  wink

Re: madVR and SVP

Chainik or MAG79, could I maybe take 15 minutes of you guys time and answer the questions I asked about all the settings? I would even donate you guys something for this.

46 (edited by Rimsky 15-02-2012 19:21:40)

Re: madVR and SVP

THX-UltraII

We are always try to answer all the questions, but not at all of us speaks english well becouse our native language is Russian.
And we dont live in one city, our team geographically distributed in 8 time zones!
For examle I and Chainik in UTC+4 timezone, MAG79 - UTC+9 timezone.

47 (edited by THX-UltraII 15-02-2012 19:33:02)

Re: madVR and SVP

thxz for your reply.

If someone could help out on these questions it would just be awesome.

Re: madVR and SVP

THX-UltraII
1. Smoothness Improvement
Is By Blocks the leasts accurate smoothness option which causes the most artifact and is the least CPU intensive?
Yes. It is easier to CPU to compose new frames by blocks. It is true only without GPU-acceleration. Block artefacts is different. I can't say that they are better or worse. It must be decide personally.

Which of the three offers the best picture quality and gives the least artifacts if configured correctly and CPU is fast enough?
My Opinion: for movies Normal+Shader 13, for anime Normal+Shader 2+Bad Areas Artifacts Mask.
gaunt: By blocks+Shader 11b (It is unreachable from SVP 3.0.6 GUI)

With the smoothness normal option, what are the differences between the selectable SVP-shaders Standard, Simple and Simple Bidirectional. And what are the artifacts of each of those three that can become visible?
SVP-shaders are our know-how. They are based and grown from MFlowFps (MBlockFps) and MFlow functions (see MVTools).
Simple and Simple Bidirectional have maximal sharp frames but less smoothness.

With the smoothness advanced option, what are the differences between the selectable SVP-shaders Original and Complex. And what are the artifacts of each of those three that can become visible?
I don't use advanced smoothness improvement now. But I can say that Complex shader is more complicated than Original. It can give more smoothness in simple scenes and more artifacts in difficult scenes.

About artifacts classification. It is difficult to me to explain it in English. I divide them into 5 categories:
- block artifacts (all SVP-shaders by block). It is like blocking artifact when decoding video with low bitrate.
- waved artifacts (all normal and advanced SVP-shaders). They are best noticeable at objects contours thus are called contour artifacts.
- structure artifacts. They appears on repeated similar objects in screen with wrong motion vectors detected.
- fading and flashes artifacts. It is related to wrong motion vectors detected too. Fixed in SVP 3.1. Coming soon.
- frame-margin artifacts. It is related to wrong motion vectors at the margins. Fixed in SVP 3.1. Coming soon.

- Halo artefacts and flicker (tremor) artifacts are the kinds of waved and block artifacts.

It is only First question and it takes much more than 15 minutes. wink

Re: madVR and SVP

MAG79
It is only First question and it takes much more than 15 minutes.

and in SVP3.1 half of question will disappear or change meanings

may be THX-UltraII wait for a new version and repeat it after that?

Re: madVR and SVP

Rimsky
Is there a beta/test version already you can share MAG79?