• Rowk
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Topic: Why Artifacts ?

Greetings,
I was looking for a way to play my blu-rays as fluid as on the tv, since I got a 144Hz display.
At first, SVP looks like the solution !
But I tried it now with different blu-rays and I'm kind of sad, that it messes up the picture quality that much.
Why is that so ?
When people or things are moving, I can see lots of artifacts around them, like an aura.
It's kind of a deal breaker, because I need fluid visuals most, when there's fast action or moving things on the screen.
In that case, SVP messes up the quality.

I've tried a few options, but can't get rid of those artifacts.
Also noticed a few other bugs:
While the movie is playing, I get weird squeeking noises on my speakers. They're not very loud, but in silent scenes, you can hear it.
I use MPC-HC for playback, but when I want to return from fullscreen to desktop, the screen stays black !
There is no way to fix it, except reset the computer.
On one blu-ray (Gomorrha) the picture won't get fluid - SVP switches to 50fps, but it's still stuttering.
Somehow I managed to get 100fps on the same episode and it was fluid, but couldn't reproduce it.
On the SVP Pro, you can enter the required fps manually ?
Also does the Pro version get rid of artifacts ?

2 Reply by James D (edited by James D 29-08-2016 01:27:21)

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Re: Why Artifacts ?

Don't know how you got 50 or 100 fps on non-Pro on 144hz monitor. Only Pro provides manual target fps including source*X multiplier and monitor/x. Best for 24 fps at 144hz are 3x and 6x.

Also SVP provides refund time.

  • Rowk
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Re: Why Artifacts ?

I didn't manipulate anything, I think it was MPC-HC ! It doesn't play blu-ray menues, so you have to open the files from directory.
When I did that, it was only 50fps. But when I opened the whole disc, it was at 100fps, but always the wrong episode.
Can anyone explain, why there are artifacts visible ?
I thought the technique is basically only black screens, that play between the frames from the movie, which gives a fluid experience.
It would be so awesome without the artifacts !

4 Reply by Nintendo Maniac 64 (edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 29-08-2016 04:45:20)

Re: Why Artifacts ?

Black frame insertion will give you flicker though...and reducing that to the point of not having flicker will result in a "multiple-image" kind of artifact.


Regarding the artifacts that you're seeing with SVP, it's very possible that your PC might actually be too slow for using SVP 4's automatic mode with 1080p videos.

You see, SVP 4's automatic mode has a tendency to choose poor settings when your PC isn't particularly fast for a given video resolution.  When this happens, the end result is still a smooth video but it'll have a ton of visual artifacts - more info.

The only work-around is to manually configure your own video profiles either via SVP 3 (free) or SVP 4 Pro.

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Re: Why Artifacts ?

There is a workaround without buying Pro.

In addition to turning the quality slider way down, you can let SVP benchmark your system with another CPU benchmark running, taking up some resources in the background.

6 Reply by Nintendo Maniac 64 (edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 29-08-2016 13:17:25)

Re: Why Artifacts ?

brucethemoose wrote:

In addition to turning the quality slider way down, you can let SVP benchmark your system with another CPU benchmark running, taking up some resources in the background.

If you force SVP to lower its automatic settings, won't that just result in a reduced interpolation mode and a low-quality shader?

  • Rowk
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Re: Why Artifacts ?

Thank you for answering !
My system should be fast enough @ i5-6600K // GTX 1070 // 16GB DDR4-3000 !
What exactly do the low-medium-high buttons below the performance-quality slider in SVP options ?
I can't see any difference using them.

How does a tv handle it, to show a fluid playback without artifacts ?
Does MPC-HC have hotkeys like VLC, to fix an audio delay ?

Re: Why Artifacts ?

Rowk wrote:

My system should be fast enough @ i5-6600K // GTX 1070 // 16GB DDR4-3000 !

It should be, but you never really know with SVP4's automatic settings since you're at the mercy of an algorithm.

One thing to at least try is to set your monitor refresh rate to 72Hz instead.  I say this because doing anything more than 4x interpolation (in this case 6x) is quite a bit more intensive than 3-4x and honestly there's not that much of a difference.

Rowk wrote:

How does a tv handle it, to show a fluid playback without artifacts ?

Your TV has a piece of hardware (likely a DSP) designed and dedicated to doing motion interpolation.

Rowk wrote:

Does MPC-HC have hotkeys like VLC, to fix an audio delay ?

Yes - numkey plus and minus.

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Re: Why Artifacts ?

You can also delete the folder in %appdata%/mpv to reset the audio delay.

Re: Why Artifacts ?

brucethemoose wrote:

You can also delete the folder in %appdata%/mpv to reset the audio delay.

But s/he uses MPC-HC...

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Re: Why Artifacts ?

Oops, misread that, nevermind.

  • Rowk
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Re: Why Artifacts ?

Thank you very much for all the answers !
I'm using a Dell S2716DG monitor, unfortunately the screen stays black when I try to set 72Hz manually.
You can choose between 24Hz, 60Hz, 85Hz, 100Hz, 120Hz and 144Hz.
Currently my SVP is kind of broken - when I want to watch a blu-ray, the picture is like in slow motion, but the audio is fine... sad

If black frames cause flickering, why not play all movie frames two times ?
Somehow I can't believe that a tv can do it better than a computer !
There must be a way to get a perfect fluid picture with hardware like that.
Is there any other known software like SVP that uses other techniques ?

13 Reply by dlr5668 (edited by dlr5668 30-08-2016 10:54:02)

Re: Why Artifacts ?

Rowk wrote:

Thank you very much for all the answers !
Is there any other known software like SVP that uses other techniques ?

Nope. Check http://www.monitortests.com/forum/threa … tility-cru . Every 144Hz monitor must work with 72Hz.

I have 2 PC and 3 monitors and SVP works quite good with each one (fx6300, 2500k, 72hz, 60hz, 50hz). BD remuxes, anime, tv shows etc

14 Reply by Nintendo Maniac 64 (edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 30-08-2016 11:30:37)

Re: Why Artifacts ?

Honestly, why not just go grab a copy of SVP3 and try it out?  If all the configuration settings make it too intimidating, I can provide some settings that you can start with and then you only have to worry about a single settings at best (simply reduce said setting until performance is good).

To clarify, the actual video interpolation is not any worse in SVP3 (some users have insisted in the past that's it's actually a bit better).

Rowk wrote:

I'm using a Dell S2716DG monitor, unfortunately the screen stays black when I try to set 72Hz manually.

Via a custom resolution?  Is so, then all the more reason to try SVP3 since you can manually specify 3x interpolation (72fps is exactly half of 144Hz).

Rowk wrote:

If black frames cause flickering, why not play all movie frames two times ?

1. That would cause a weird double-image effect

2. Simulated 48Hz with black frame insertion would still be too flickery

15 Reply by Rowk (edited by Rowk 30-08-2016 12:42:32)

  • Rowk
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Re: Why Artifacts ?

Your help is very appreciated !
I've tried SVP 3.1, but it gives me a script error: there is no function named "SetMTMode"

Btw what exactly is a DSP ?
Sorry for all the questions...I just don't get why a 1500$ computer with G-Sync everywhere can't play a blu-ray fluid without artifacts, it's outrageous ! big_smile

16 Reply by Nintendo Maniac 64 (edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 30-08-2016 13:31:12)

Re: Why Artifacts ?

Rowk wrote:

I've tried SVP 3.1, but it gives me a script error: there is no function named "SetMTMode"

You're using an incompatible version of AVIsynth.  Download the following copy of AVIsynth MT and put the DLL in the same folder as MPC-HC.exe:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dckxoowjlzwku … 0150220.7z

For reference, this is the exact version of AVIsynth that I always used with SVP3.

Rowk wrote:

Btw what exactly is a DSP ?

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit … _processor

Rowk wrote:

I just don't get why a 1500$ computer with G-Sync everywhere can't play a blu-ray fluid without artifacts, it's outrageous ! big_smile

It very well should be able to, it's just that SVP's automatic settings are a bit of a black hole which is why I never use automatic.

BTW, just to clarify, you did run SVP4's performance assessment test when you had very little background CPU load, right?  SVP uses the CPU way more than GPU to the point that it's actually recommended to have SVP use your integrated GPU while things like madVR use your discrete GPU.

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Re: Why Artifacts ?

Try to turn off Gsync for testing purposes.

18 Reply by Blackfyre (edited by Blackfyre 31-08-2016 05:04:51)

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Re: Why Artifacts ?

I use MPC + Madvr

I have the PRO version of SVP 4 and similar hardware to yours. 4790K @ 4.7Ghz & an MSI GTX 1070 Gaming X

I'm using a 1080p 43" Sony W800C TV as a monitor & I use it for both entertainment & gaming.

Here's my settings for perfect movie/series/anime viewing (literally for everything I use these settings), with these settings ARTIFACTS are minimal (barely noticeable in comparison to default settings). My Madvr settings are custom too, if you're interested I could share them as well. But you need SVP 4 Pro for you to be able to use these settings. The MSI Afterburner settings are there not because you should copy them, you shouldn't, every videocard overclocks differently, but it's just to confirm that I indeed do have a GTX 1070.

http://i.imgur.com/5f0fQGN.png

19 Reply by Nintendo Maniac 64 (edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 31-08-2016 17:25:43)

Re: Why Artifacts ?

Blackfyre wrote:

similar hardware to yours. 4790K @ 4.7Ghz

That's not that similar since OP never mentioned if their CPU was overclocked at all nor by how much; not only that but they own an i5 rather than an i7.  From my own i5-520m I can tell you that SVP is one of the few programs that can really take advantage of SMT, and Haswell's inplementation of SMT is quite a bit better than Westmere's.


Blackfyre wrote:

http://i.imgur.com/5f0fQGN.png

Considering the difference in CPU hardware, it's very possible that your SVP settings are actually be too intensive.  Not only that, but I really must recommend to start with "artifact masking" completely turned off and then only increase it if you are displeased with the results.

One could even argue to do the same thing with the "Decrease grip step" option, or at least put it on "Local refinement" since "Global refinement" is quite a bit more CPU-intensive.

Re: Why Artifacts ?

I don't know why I thought I read 6700K @ 4.7GHz when I was skimming down the post. My bad OP.

Yes I am aware that SVP is predominantly CPU intensive. I went from an i5 3570K @ 4.2GHz to an i7 4790K @ 4.7Ghz (massive difference, especially back in the SVP 3.x.x days when it was much more CPU intensive & demanding).

Artifact masking with the settings I am using, in terms of smoothness, there is little difference between 'disabled' & 'strong'. However, setting it to 'strongest' definitely ruins the smoothness of the video. But for the little (barely noticeable) difference between disabled & strong. It is worth it because it masks the artifacts very well. And in the case of the OP, he wants to mask his artifacts. Because like me, he finds them very annoying and intolerable when disabled.

So yeah, I recommend he buys the PRO version just so he can use the artifacts masking option at least.

PS: These settings barely use 30% of my CPU, so for the OP maybe he can use them too. Instead of 3x source, lock it to 60 FPS, and instead of 9 Processing Threads, set it 5. He should be fine with a 6600K (especially if it's cooled & overclocked properly).

21 Reply by Nintendo Maniac 64 (edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 01-09-2016 07:50:12)

Re: Why Artifacts ?

Blackfyre wrote:

in the case of the OP, he wants to mask his artifacts. Because like me, he finds them very annoying and intolerable when disabled.

But we do not even know if the artifacts s/he is seeing are the same as those that you would have with those settings because we have no clue what SVP4's automatic settings were - for all we know it was using the "Sharp" shader.


Blackfyre wrote:

So yeah, I recommend he buys the PRO version just so he can use the artifacts masking option at least.

The artifact masking option is present in SVP3 as well...


Blackfyre wrote:

Instead of 3x source, lock it to 60 FPS

But 24--to->72fps has less artifacts, better smoothness, and similar CPU utilization compared to 24--to->60fps.


Blackfyre wrote:

instead of 9 Processing Threads, set it 5.

5 threads gives considerably worse performance than the likes of 7 or 11:
http://www.svp-team.com/forum/viewtopic … 212#p57212

On my i5-520m I had to manually set the thread count to 11 because 7 threads wasn't enough (for reference I use 7 threads on my Pentium G3258 @ 4.6GHz without issue; that's the difference between a CPU with 2 super-fast threads and a CPU with 4 not-so-fast CPU threads).

22 Reply by dlr5668 (edited by dlr5668 01-09-2016 07:49:12)

Re: Why Artifacts ?

Here is FX6300 overclocked @ 7 threads 1080p (uniform, 13shader, 12px + decrease by two) :

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9Ea6W06nwQo/V8fdPki03_I/AAAAAAAAK6A/UjGQAjvluBU/s0/SVPManager_2016-09-01_10-48-13.png

You dont really need CPU stronger than i5 for SVP.

23 Reply by Nintendo Maniac 64 (edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 01-09-2016 08:05:44)

Re: Why Artifacts ?

dlr5668 wrote:

7 threads

Now how would that performance graph look with only 5 threads? wink

(I realize you're using a 6-thread CPU so it'd be silly to use only 5 threads)

dlr5668 wrote:

decrease by two

Local or global refinement?  Global can be quite a bit more CPU-heavy...

Also if you really want to see SVP eat up your CPU, set your shader to "Complicated" - just make sure you don't use it on any videos with moving thin lines or it'll be wavy-artifacts galore! Example video that results in aforementioned artifacts via the in-game rain (though I've recently discovered that the "Complicated" shader has fewer artifacts when you disable GPU acceleration...I'm planning on making a thread asking about this sometime in the future).

Also, interestingly enough, Complicated seems to give less artifacts than "Standard" on anime or other traditional 2D-animated content...either that, or less noticeable artifacts.

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Re: Why Artifacts ?

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:
dlr5668 wrote:

7 threads

Now how would that performance graph look with only 5 threads? wink

(I realize you're using a 6-thread CPU so it'd be silly to use only 5 threads)

dlr5668 wrote:

decrease by two

Local or global refinement?  Global can be quite a bit more CPU-heavy...

Also if you really want to see SVP eat up your CPU, set your shader to "Complicated" - just make sure you don't use it on any videos with moving thin lines or it'll be wavy-artifacts galore! Example video that results in aforementioned artifacts via the in-game rain (though I've recently discovered that the "Complicated" shader has fewer artifacts when you disable GPU acceleration...I'm planning on making a thread asking about this sometime in the future).

Also, interestingly enough, Complicated seems to give less artifacts than "Standard" on anime or other traditional 2D-animated content...either that, or less noticeable artifacts.

Except for when they animate a thin line in tongue

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Re: Why Artifacts ?

Also if you really want to see SVP eat up your CPU, set your shader to "Complicated" - just make sure you don't use it on any videos with moving thin lines or it'll be wavy-artifacts galore!

I can't say I've noticed Complicated ever producing visuals worse than standard.