mashingan wrote:

BlackFyre

From your examples, MPDN dropped the frame.  smile
Well, the artifact is definitely reduced, but it surely reduces the smoothness, no?

No, MPDN dropping frames doesn't effect the smoothness whatsoever (in fact, that's my point, if there's no delayed frames, it's actually slightly smoother than MPC & PotPlayer; I already explained why MPDN drops frames on the first page; or why I believe it drops frames with SVP). The best way to test smoothness is with movies like the Hobbit which are originally shot at 48FPS, but I have them at 24fps. The difference is very noticeable. Both MPC and MPDN are arguably equally as smooth with the same settings on SVP (give or take a little, that MPDN might be slightly smoother), but the difference is the amount of artifacts and their size (both of which are lower and/or smaller on MPDN).

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:
dlr5668 wrote:

Nintendo Maniac 64
source should be BD Remux quaility for proper tests. Dont test SVP on low res/bitrate shit.

Uhh, all 1080p Blu-ray discs are only 30fps or lower, which kind of defeats the purpose of what I was hypothesizing...

If the video is already 60FPS and you're not using SVP to create extra-frames, any player should be able to run it, even on low-end hardware. What's the point? You're not really creating any extra frames if you're running a 60fps video @60fps using SVP (makes the whole point of the program redundant).

That's why the best way to test SVP is on high res/bitrate (what dlr5668 said) and with videos that have a lower FPS than your monitor (aka 24fps, 25fps, and 30fps content; I don't even use SVP for 60FPS content). I also upscale to 1440p, without upscaling on a 1080p monitor/tv/projector watching 1080p content, I can probably push for better settings. But I'm waiting for OLED TV Prices to go down to buy a TV for my room, probably towards the end of the year. I regret not getting a Panasonic Plasma before they stopped making them.

mashingan wrote:
Blackfyre wrote:

the argument I use is that since MPDN Direct3D 11 API decreases CPU usage, RAM, and GPU usage and uses them differently to how Direct3D 9ex does, it leaves SVP with a bigger head-room to use those resources (both the GPU for GPU-Acceleration & the CPU for making frames), thus resulting in less artifacts, because SVP has more resources to work with...

Could anyone enlighten me the differences between DX11 and DX9 and its correlation with reducing artifacts?

Is there any way to reduce interpolated frame artifact near-to-none? Let the CPU/GPU usage is not an issue first.

For the TS, could you give some screen shot that show the differences between video that played in MPC and MPDN?
It will easily illustrate on how MPDN reduces artifact better than MPC.

That's why I said if I had a DSLR Camera, print-screen doesn't work with MPDN in FSM.

According to the developer of SVP above, it's placebo, I personally see a difference myself. I'll see if I can do screen-shots using a third-party app. Also how will I time the screenshot so perfectly, so that it captures at that specific time of the video? lol is there a way to time screenshots?

Edit:

In real-time, taking a print screen, this is the closest I can get, but artifacts don't really show properly on screenshots for some reason, this scene is riddled with artifacts on MPC+Madvr watching it live, in the screenshot all I see is one tiny artifact  hmm anyway the differences are clear...

http://imgur.com/9L0M7Q9,8MHpZLB#0

pay attention to the top right horn? on his face, you can see the artifact on the MPC+Madvr, be it small, in live that scene, his whole body looks like it has a 1ms ghost behind it re-doing what it's doing... but it's a really fast moving camera scene and is a rare occasion...

Have a look at the MPDN image compared to the MPC+Madvr one... Look at the background, how much clearer it is even though motion is extremely fast in this scene (sharper+clearer). I'll try and grab better screenshots, but it's impossible to time them perfectly to capture the same frame on both players... unless there's a way I'm unaware of?

Edit #2:

Okay in the pictures below you can't tell me that the difference in that is placebo (it's closer in millisecond compared to the above picture) took me a few tries to get it so close... It's significantly clearer, and this is in extremely fast scenes btw, in normal scenes the difference is noticeable too, it just provides me with a much better, smoother, faster, clearer viewing experience compared to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer.

http://imgur.com/QkFcgC1,sFVx6ep#0

Chainik wrote:

Blackfyre
after I overclocked from 4.2Ghz to 4.7Ghz, under the exact SAME SVP setting which worked fine with no delayed frames or dropped frames in MPC+Madvr, the amount of artifacts decreased.

are you familiar with the term "placebo"?  hmm

Considering I've studied psychology for 2 years and left it to study politics. Yes, I'm very well aware of the placebo effect. If I had a DSLR Camera capable of shooting at high frame rates I'd have recorded a video to show exactly what I mean.

It's not placebo, the evidence is there right in front of me. Unless I'm suffering from some weird mental illness known as SVP Syndrome, I haven't taken that into account, but I doubt I am haha.

Mystery wrote:

By setting SVP @ 144hz and using 4x ratio, the playback is skippy, even if I set other settings very low.

The only reason we force SVP @ 144Hz on a 60Hz monitor, is so it doesn't display the FPS Warning message every time you run a video... Playback is skippy? Are you sure all options under "video repair" are ticked off?

dlr5668 wrote:

144 / 24 = 6x

Correct, I have 720p videos and below all running @ 6x (my CPU can handle it, with the settings I had setup).

Jeff R 1 wrote:

Blackfyre :
Mine says Direct3D 11 not Direct X _ don't know if that makes a difference, but Direct3D 11 is selected on my Dell running two GTX860's and an i7 4710MQ _ not the fastest processor on the planet, but good enough to run SVP.

My HTPC is running a GTX980 with an i7 4770k (not over clocked).
The type of artifacts that happen "The Theory Of Everything" happens in all movies with moving objects over complex backgrounds.
Thanks for you response. smile

I have to check out The Theory of Everything, but Top Gear, and The Hobbit, Fast & Furious for me, in certain areas where clear artifacts are visible, in MPDN they're either reduced significantly in size, or completely gone.

Chainik wrote:

Blackfyre
This's very simple process - SVP is making frames and video player is renedering them.
There're no options for video player to reduce artifacts created by SVP other than
a) drop some (intermidiate) frames
b) blend frames

If you set 4x in SVP then MPDN probably blends each ~2 frames so it may (or may not) look like fewer artifacts.

Thanks for the reply Dev, but the argument I use is that since MPDN Direct3D 11 API decreases CPU usage, RAM, and GPU usage and uses them differently to how Direct3D 9ex does, it leaves SVP with a bigger head-room to use those resources (both the GPU for GPU-Acceleration & the CPU for making frames), thus resulting in less artifacts, because SVP has more resources to work with...

This is evident when overclocking; after I overclocked from 4.2Ghz to 4.7Ghz, under the exact SAME SVP setting which worked fine with no delayed frames or dropped frames in MPC+Madvr, the amount of artifacts decreased.

Below is an image of SVPMark @ 4.7Ghz on my 4790K

http://i.imgur.com/8ObD1Sp.png

Chainik wrote:

Blackfyre
BTW I tried MPDN about 3 month ago and I wasn't impressed at all  big_smile

Give it a try now Dev, I and many other users have reported a lot of issues that have been fixed over the last few months, I also requested for DirectX 11 support and Zachs added it; that is primarily what made me visibly see the decrease in artifacts.

Mystery wrote:

Media Player .NET works on my Intel HD 4000 but I get no image whatsoever when running on Radeon HD 7670M.

Why are you rendering at 4x? Isn't it overkill for a 60hz display?

Can anyone comment on the quality difference with these settings compared to the default settings? Or between MPC and MPDN?

Why it isn't running on your Radeon HD7670M could be due to driver issues? I'm not sure to be honest as to why it isn't working. I see you've asked on the Doom9 Forums, I think Zachs is on holiday, so he might not get back to you as quickly as you'd hope, but if someone else has had a similar issue they'll get back to you.

As to why we are running at 4x the source; I partly explain it in the article. But it has been well documented and argued (while some don't believe it), running 4x the source actually makes the video "appear" a lot smoother (if your hardware is capable of running it), even if it's over your refresh rate. Running at 6x via forcing refresh rate, I tested it and it does appear to be even smoother than 4x, but for the benefit of everyone, as well as less explaining for me to do on the article, we'll be using 4x frame-rate.

Mystery wrote:

Besides not working, one downside compared to madVR is that I cannot configure scaler per video types, which means 288p videos must use the same scaler as 1080p videos. Should I leave those to defaults or configure scalers to the maximum my system can take for 1080p videos on 1080p display? As for Render Scripts, what should it be set to?

Also, with MPDN, is there a way to do the scaling before calling SVP, so that there are less frames to resize and SVP get higher quality content to work with?

Regarding render script, try reading through the MPDN thread, so you get an idea of how to use it. You can configure different render scripts and use commands, such as Alt+Numpad1 to activate one render script and Alt+Numpad2 to activate another (I haven't done this myself, but I believe the feature is there).

Jeff R 1 wrote:

Leaving the same settings in SVP, I see no improvement in artifacts compared to MPC-HC. With the movie "The Theory Of Everything" at the beginning where the bike riders are in front of complex back grounds of tree leaves, the artifacts are both exactly the same, my projector handles that scene better, to be honest.
A player is a player, turn up the settings in SVP to make it more smooth _ the artifacts increase _ turn the settings down _ you get less artifacts, but less smoothness.

I haven't tried "The Theory of Everything", but for me the differences are visible and clear in many videos. Again I don't expect everyone to achieve the same results, and I cannot answer all the questions regarding MPDN, so I'll see if Zachs can comment here regarding MPDN Issues (I have to ask him), BUT have you selected DirectX 11 Presentation API? Because that's what decreases the amount of artifacts for me (using the exact same SVP  settings).

mashingan wrote:

Okay, now I can make it works.

I observed no improvement than playing with mpc.
Artifact about same, while CPU usage higher than mpc. The improvement maybe the memory is lower about 40% than using madVR, but in my opinion madVR rendered better.
Only observed it with one anime video.

I think I will try it later after the author improves it, but for now, mpc is better for me. smile

You have to fiddle around with the settings and the render-scripts, I haven't written a guide for that yet, UNI started for me, so I'll be busy and probably need some time to write a MPDN Guide (no promises if I will, but I plan to in the future).

Stick to whichever player you find best, I used MPC+Madvr for a long time (as well as many other players along the way with many different settings over the last few years), but for the last few months I've been using MPDN, and I have seen it improve week after week.

biff wrote:

Maybe it's because I'm running Windows 10. I'll try MPDN again in the next build. Thanks guys...

I'm going to definitely go ahead and say it's Windows 10 related. Because your problems are not normal. I am honest, MPDN has been simply amazing for me, uses less resources (less RAM, less GPU, and less CPU power), and on top of all of that after setting up the render scripts it'll look even better than Madvr with less artefacts.

dlr5668 wrote:

It works pretty decent on my old rig (7850 + fx 6300 6 cores @ 4.7 Ghz + win 8.1).
It even can auto set up 72 Hz as MPC HC. No dropped/delayed frames for me.
I really cant understand why it has less artifacts than MPC but its real.

Go to render script, add a image processor, configure the image processor, go to sweetfx folder and add LumaSharpen... Watch how much sharper videos look with this... Glad to hear you're not having issues with it. Enjoy.

Don't try the other stuff, I have a 7970 OC Edition and I personally can't run some of the settings.

biff wrote:

I'd love to try MPDM with SVP but first I have to stop MPDM from dropping frames (it's dropping about 20 frames a second). Average rendering time is 150ms.  (My rig is an i53570k, a GTX970, etc. and SVP works pretty much perfectly for me with PotPlayer or MPC.) I've tried Direct X 9,10, and 11. I've tried both the 86 and 64 versions. I went to your article and tried your instructions. I've tried playing with every LAV option. Nothing works. Any chance it's not accessing my GPU? It lists my Graphics Adapter ID as 0. Thanks in advance....

The frame dropping issue is normal, if you watch the video you'll know it's running smooth. I run a 24fps video at 4x source, thus it's running at 96fps on a 60Hz monitor which can only do a max of 60fps, the remainder of the frames are literally "dropped" by the media player. The reason why MPC doesn't drop them is because Madvr Smooth Motion feature remains enabled even if the frame-rate is higher than the monitor refresh rate, with MPDN smooth motion or fluid motion rather, is disabled once you're running SVP at faster frame rate than the monitor refresh rate. What you need to look at is delayed frames! If you're getting any delayed frames it means it's lagging and you need to tone down the settings for SVP or the Media Player.

Graphic Adapter ID as 0 is normal, that's what mine is... Also you can't expect to run my SVP settings on a 3570K, unless it's clocked ridiculously high. SVP is mostly a CPU intensive program, your GTX 970 will handle the render scripts. Read my article, I state that unless you're running the same hardware as I am or your hardware is better than mine, I cannot guarantee that my settings will work.

In fact here's the best way to test it. You use MPC? or PotPlayer? First use my SVP Settings with whichever one you're using, make sure everything is running stable, tweak it (every person's SVP should be different, depending on their hardware, mine is just a general guide as to how I achieved maximum smoothness), then after you've assured SVP is running smoothly, then and only then start tweaking around with MPDN. That way at least you know 100% that whatever issues are arising are related to MPDN.

mashingan wrote:

I tried MPDN twice, restarting twice, just to kill zombified process lol

It just gives me "infinite loading", after I add  ffdshow raw filter to its external filter option.
Its memory usage stops at 132kb, then if I double click again the exe file, it add 132kb again.

Btw, I know setting that makes less GPU/CPU usage and without artifact, it's setting when you watch without SVP big_smile

I honestly have no idea... You'd have to ask on the MPDN Thread.

Just remember,

1. Download and extract "Media Player .NET (MPDN) - x86 Edition" into an EMPTY folder.

2. Download and extract "Latest MPDN Player Extensions, Render Scripts and Custom Linear Scalers Pack", into ANOTHER empty folder.

3. Open the folder from STEP 2, you should see another folder titled "MPDN_Extensions_Master", open that and COPY everything inside of it to the MPDN folder from STEP 1 and overwrite all the files.

Every time a new version comes out you have to do this, you can for example go into the folder from step 2 and extract that specific folder directly to the MPDN directory; which is what I do using WinRAR.

MaXimus wrote:

Blackfyre
thanks for the fast reply, last question, how do I get LAV to work with it? even though I have it installed, I don't see it as one of the options I can choose from Video (under Directshow)

and I would appreciate if there is a button to set file associations so I can quickly associate it with all video files

File association hasn't been added yet to my knowledge, I run the program and open files with it, it still is in development, it's still being fine tuned, and Zachs listens to all sort of suggestions so best ask on the thread there.

PS: LAV automatically loads. Play a video and you'll see what I mean, you should see LAV & FFDShow in the tray icons area after you've added FFDShow.

Edit:

For your screen-flickering issue, you have to ask in the forums on Doom9, I don't know why you're having the problems above (maybe it's driver issues, not sure, try DX9 or DX10.1 and see if you're having the same problem).

MaXimus wrote:

Thanks a lot for the settings, one question though about setup, so I just install MPDN the 32 bit version right? then add LAV + ffdshowrawvideofilter + madVR?

Yes to MPDN 32-Bit since SVP doesn't work with 64-Bit.

Yes to LAV Filters

Yes to FFDShow

No to Madvr, I already have it installed on my PC and always have had it installed and updated. But I don't believe it's a requirement for MPDN as stated in the OP for the program on doom9 forums (it comes with its own settings for upscaling and downscaling that are similar to Madvr, have a look at the options for MPDN).

To get SVP to work you must go to View --> Options --> Video (under DirectShow) and add ffdshow raw video filter to the selected filters (that's all you NEED to do). And select DX11 As the presentation API obviously. Have a look at all the settings.

EDIT: I'm not the developer of MPDN, Zachs is the developer, so any questions regarding MPDN are best answered by him.

As for the options in MPDN, you should be familiar with them if you've used Madvr. Have a look through the options, from dithering to Luma & Chroma up-scaling and down-sampling. The Render Script is by far the best feature, that needs to be downloaded alongside the extensions and added to the MPDN Directory. It's all in the OP.

For those of you that own a DirectX 11 Videocard, there exists a media player that utilizes DirectX 11 Presentation API, as opposed to the majority of media players that use DX9. Yes, it also has DX9 Presentation API and DX10.1 too.

The major benefit I found is that it significantly decreases the amount of artifacts produced by SVP. Compared with PotPlayer & MPC.

I have an entire article written with MY personal BEST settings for SVP, that achieve maximum smoothness, the article is in the OP, under articles. I update it whenever I can and if it needs to be updated (the last update is from January, but I do have an updated article coming up in the next few weeks hopefully; no promises). If you just want my SVP settings and not the media player, read through the article in the link below under articles. If you want to try the media player yourself, go ahead. I plan to write a guide for the media player itself, so that people set it up the way I have it setup and can experience sharper, better quality videos, and with less GPU usage and less artifacts. Make sure you thank the developer of MPDN (Media Player .NET), making an account with the forum below requires you to wait a few days in order to comment.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=171120